|
|
Veteran
Posts: 277
 
Location: Dallas, Texas | I had just learned at the clinic this past week that the 3 wheeled frames will NOT be allowed at Outdoor Nationals this year. According to CIC rules, which is what ODN will go by, you will not be allowed to use them for competition. The reason for this was unknown, and hopefully someone can inform us as to "why" since there were no answers given.
Im assuming that the freshman and masters will be allowed to use them since they are not trying out for the Jr. and Sr. World Team, but I am not positive. I would hate for someone to show up at ODN to compete and be DQ'd before the start. With all this being said, if anyone has any answers as to this ruling and why it is being enforced, please share with us. Thanks for your time, |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 1447
| I don't know why, but just, like about 4 hours ago, posted that question on the Bont form, which has many influential skaters. If they say anything useful, I'll post it here.
Freshmen and masters are being reviewed. Contrary to rumors, it has not yet been officially decided, or at least hadn't as of Sunday noon. But an official ruling is very likely well before ODN, IMO. |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 130
Location: Fort Smith, Arkansas | Is there some secret advantage a three frame has. LOL seriously!!! It's a scam to sell more frames LOL!!! |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 409
Location: Braselton,GA | Just one more dumb rule. |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 1447
| Josh22 - 2009-05-07 6:37 PM Is there some secret advantage a three frame has.
I don't know about secret. Three wheels are lighter than 4.
BTW, the new rule also outlaws 2 wheel frames. Not only are they lighter, but sometimes the wheels are in front of, and behind the boot, so the foot is very close to the ground. |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 277
Location: Dallas, Texas | Jim White - 2009-05-07 10:05 PM
BTW, the new rule also outlaws 2 wheel frames. Not only are they lighter, but sometimes the wheels are in front of, and behind the boot, so the foot is very close to the ground.
Well that doesnt make sense cause thats one of the advantages of the Bont 3 point mounting system. The foot is closer to the ground, or atleast thats what i was told by a friend of mine whos sponsored by them.
And thank you Jim for any info you receive. I think this rule kind of sucks for kids/ladies/anyone who has been training all year long on a three wheel frame, and now has to change to a four wheel frame less than 2 months away from ODN. Then again, if theyre good enough to make world team i think they will adapt to the 4 wheel frame ok. I guess the 3x110 1x100 frames will be a good option. |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 1447
| DFWSk8ter - 2009-05-07 8:16 PM
Jim White - 2009-05-07 10:05 PM
BTW, the new rule also outlaws 2 wheel frames. Not only are they lighter, but sometimes the wheels are in front of, and behind the boot, so the foot is very close to the ground.
Well that doesnt make sense cause thats one of the advantages of the Bont 3 point mounting system. The foot is closer to the ground, or atleast thats what i was told by a friend of mine whos sponsored by them.
I don't understand what the issue is. Having the foot close to the ground is generally considered an advantage, whether in the Bont 3 point, or in the 2 wheel skates with fore and aft wheels. But I agree in not understanding why that would be a reason to outlaw them.
Edited by Jim White 2009-05-07 8:35 PM
|
|
| |
|
Member
Posts: 43
Location: Harriston, Ontario. Canada | This issue came up in Gross Gerau a couple of weeks ago. A coach came to me asking whether his young skater would be allowed to race with a 3 wheel setup. I knew about the CIC rule in article 20 and brought it to the chief judges attention. She told me there was an amendment and it would be allowed. Just as well as half the little skaters had the 3 wheel setup. I think USARS needs to learn to go beyond just reading words and look at why this might of been put in place. By not allowing the 3 wheel they are taking a big step backward. I know Canada will not enforce this rule at their Nationals. Cheers Alex
|
|
| |
|
Elite Veteran
Posts: 1102
Location: east coast | still lmao, what did forrest gump say???
Edited by jeff foster 2009-05-08 7:14 AM
|
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 1447
| So, Alex, what's the amendment, and where is it published? Is it an amendment to the CIC rules, for all events, or only for a specific country or event?
Saying they aren't allowed isn't correct., IMO. It's not yet been decided whether 2's and 3's will be allowed for Freshmen and Masters, IMO.
Canadianref01 - 2009-05-08 6:25 AM I think USARS needs to learn to go beyond just reading words and look at why this might of been put in place. That's exactly the purpose of this thread, and the Bont one. We're trying to learn why. Any help?
Edited by Jim White 2009-05-08 7:27 AM
|
|
| |
|
H.N.I.C.
Posts: 2356
| Yup...going backwards! |
|
| |
|
Member
Posts: 43
Location: Harriston, Ontario. Canada | Hi Jim: I haven't seen anything on paper yet but if a judge like Barbara Fisher makes a comment like that I would bet on it. She is in my opinion one of the best judges I have ever watched or worked with. If you remember she got a raw deal in Spain last year at worlds yet she rolled up her sleeves and bailed out the 2 bimbos who where the track and road chiefs. Without this lady I would hate to of seen the riots that might have taken place. As far as why this rule is in place????????? People with small feet are at a major disadvantage especially for the track events. I think you will see something SOON coming out from the CIC (hopefully) Cheers Alex |
|
| |
|
Elite Veteran
Posts: 1102
Location: east coast | quads are good.... |
|
| |
|
Member
Posts: 6
Location: Lincoln, NE | The CIC rules are only strictly applied to our World Class events . . . i.e. those events leading to world team/Jr world team . . . all the other events at our ODN are unofficial (by CIC standards) because they do not qualify for worlds . . . we use the rules because it is intended to be a training event for the younger skaters. There would be no reason to enforce this rule for younger skaters or any non world class skaters.
Richard Hawkins
USARS Executive Director
Edited by Richard 2009-05-08 9:53 AM
|
|
| |
|
Member
Posts: 43
Location: Harriston, Ontario. Canada | Richard perhaps you could clarify why the CIC have this rule? Quite a few people on different sites have commented on their take on this issue but I still haven't heard what the logic is behind rule. Cheers Alex |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 467
Location: GA | Thank you Richard. I would not like to see a 4 or 5 year old try to learn on a long frame, get bad habits and then quit because they are discouraged. Plus in my opinion and that's all it is, their leg muscles, ligaments and tendon are not ready for the length and size wheels. Their legs just can not push that size and weight. Give them a chance and they might stay in the game. If the over sea's country do not like to lose because of a 3 wheel frame I am sure there company's that can sell them some. Think of the kids not the win. |
|
| |
|
Regular
Posts: 86
| Sweeeeeeet, still nothing in the rules banning my one wheel frame. I can still skate ODN, wait...... I'm Canadian........ guess i am still out of luck 
Damn these rules!!!!!!
|
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 1447
| Age 25 up? Anyone, any country, can skate USA ODN! |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 473
Location: Illinois | Mr B. - 2009-05-08 10:14 AM
Thank you Richard. I would not like to see a 4 or 5 year old try to learn on a long frame, get bad habits and then quit because they are discouraged. Plus in my opinion and that's all it is, their leg muscles, ligaments and tendon are not ready for the length and size wheels. Their legs just can not push that size and weight. Give them a chance and they might stay in the game. If the over sea's country do not like to lose because of a 3 wheel frame I am sure there company's that can sell them some. Think of the kids not the win.
This could be a sneaky way to keep smaller skaters off of large diameter wheels (100's and 110's). If you have to skate on 4 wheels and smaller skaters can't push big wheels, then you end up with skaters on 80 and 84mm wheels again.
Just a thought, but probably not correct. |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 467
Location: GA | Could be Mister Matt. 84's or 90's sound great to me depending on their age and size. Good thought. There are some smart people out here. Just wish the uppity up would listen. |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 263
Location: CA | QUADS!!!!!!!!
that's AWESOME! H@H@H@H@H@ LMAO!!!.......................................................................................................Still laughing |
|
| |
|
H.N.I.C.
Posts: 2356
| Here's another reason, another coach and I had a question and some similar ideas and I think most are missing this important part......................now when we had 5 wheels, if you happened to lose a wheel during a race, you could possibly manage to finish that race..........even possibly with a 4 wheel 100 or 110 frame you could possibly finish that race, but think about a 3 wheel or two wheel frame? AH HA! SAFETY CONCERNS NOW ARE running through your head!
Let's say your kid is in a World Class race with 75 skaters on the track and is up near the front and they lose their front wheel skating on a 3 wheel 110 frame? What usually happens? All over the place, all squirrely, wobbly and eventually go down trying to either skate or slow down while getting their feet back in control, they fall............and however many skaters don't see it, all come crashing down!
Indoor is a little bit different, the speeds force us to fall outward most of the time, so it's not as dangerous plus you only have 6 or 7 skaters there on the track! That is unless they happen to crash in the straightaway.
So I really think this is a safety concern to those competing at the WORLD LEVEL.
$.02 |
|
| |
|
Member
Posts: 43
Location: Harriston, Ontario. Canada | your right Jim although I think the dawn of the 110mm wheel will cause far more crashes than potential lost wheels from 3 wheel frames ever would. There are still lots of people out there that shouldn't be on these 110's. Perhaps 80's or even quads lol. Cheers Alex |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 1447
| I must support Alex to the extent of saying that in 5 years of watching all the USA ODN races, I don't recall seeing anyone ever lose any wheel. |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 130
Location: Fort Smith, Arkansas | I would think if I lost a front wheel on any setup, I would bust azz. LOL!!!!! But then again I keep my axles tight to prevent wheel loss.
If my 2nd will is about to touch the bottom of my foot on my 2-point, then how is it a 3-point can be lower? LOL der ter der The only thing lower is the mounting points. |
|
| |
|
H.N.I.C.
Posts: 2356
| Why does everyone insist on talking about the 3 point mounting on a Bont set up? Most of these are 4 wheel frames not 3 wheel, it's only a 3 point mount! I know there are some 3 wheel Bont set ups but not in a 3 point mount. |
|
| |
|
H.N.I.C.
Posts: 2356
| Jim,
I have seen people lose wheels, bust hubs and even frames coming lose! Don't know which ODN you've been too? Just last year at ODN, a SR World Class skater busted a hub and went down. I could only imagine if he/she was on a 3 wheel frame! |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 130
Location: Fort Smith, Arkansas | I'm confused. If I fall on a 3 or 4 wheel frame, wouldn't it be just as bad? |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 1447
| Good point, Josh. Of course, 4 wheel frames have 33% more wheels, so more likely to develop problems like busted hubs, which may lock up and take you down whatever wheel it is. So maybe 3's are safer, lol. |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 277
Location: Dallas, Texas | JIM LARSON - 2009-05-09 10:26 AM
Why does everyone insist on talking about the 3 point mounting on a Bont set up? Most of these are 4 wheel frames not 3 wheel, it's only a 3 point mount! I know there are some 3 wheel Bont set ups but not in a 3 point mount.
The reason i brought up the bont 3 point was, that Jim White had stated that the 2 wheel frames(which ive only seen a couple of the Akana kids use, in which their father had designed them) gives people an advantage because there feet are lower to the ground due to the front and rear wheel in front/behind the boot, therefore they were bannned from ODN competition. NOW,From what ive been told about bont skates is that the three point system allows for the boot to be lower to the ground, which apparently is an advantage. I had stated that banning the 2 wheeled frames due to the boot being lower to the ground didnt make sense if that was the only reason, since bont does this with their 3 point mounting systems. If i am incorrect on the Bont 3 point, i apologize as i was misinformed.
BTW, this was a confusing explanation even for me to read, and i wrote the damn thing. Sorry. |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 1447
| Hey, I almost understand that, lol. Just one clarification, I didn't intend to say that low frames (e.g., Akana) were banned because they are low; I don't know why the ban, not even whether it's because of concerns about safety, unfairness, or one of several other possible concerns. Lowness, with the perception of that being an unfair advantage, I suppose could be a reason, but I've heard no-one, in any forum, or in person, claim they know what the FIRS inner circle is thinking.
Edited by Jim White 2009-05-09 6:26 PM
|
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 164
Location: Roselle Park, NJ. | Well I think is clear as day why the ban, Richard said it, if you are racing for a spot on the world team, then you can not skate on 3 wheels, CIC doesn't approve of it, only 2 years ago the CIC didn't approve 110MM, yet you saw everyone use them everywhere except on Outdoor nationals, if you can not race with them at worlds then what is the point of wearing them on the qualifier for worlds? it makes perfect sense to me! now why the CIC doesn't allow it? I think they believe that kids should develop into the bigger wheels, this is the way the Colombian federation does it, I don't agree with the ban for all the kids, but don't think that a new comer should be on 3 110's either!
As a coach I teach my kids to start on either a 3*80-84 or 4*80's from there we move them up as their technique progresses, some can move up to 3*90 in 6 months some stay in 4*80 for a year, I believe is better for the development of the kids technique, but we all have our own way of thinking, I know there is a lot of pressure when you take your kids to competitions form the parents when they see that most of the kids winning are on 3 100-110's then they approach you and ask you ... how come my kid is not on the bigger wheels like all this other kids? I believe is up to the coach to show the parents that it might actually be worst for kids that don't belong on 3*110 to be on them just because the coach feels challenged by the parents.
Just last week in the ESS one of the parents in my team asked me why his son wasn't on the 3 big wheels, all the kids seem to do so much better, then I looked at a couple of skaters from other teams, and pointed out the horrible pronation of some new kids on the 3 big wheels, they had absolutely no control over the skates, the father saw my point and agreed. Its important we let our kids develop into technically good skaters before the big wheels!
Francisco Ramirez
Excel Speed Team |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 1447
| Everyone I've heard understands that the USA ban at ODN for Juniors and Seniors is because of CIC, and agrees with it; the question is why CIC bans them for big kids and adults (actually they don't ban them for little kids, those too young to skate Worlds).
Edited by Jim White 2009-05-10 11:53 AM
|
|
| |
|
H.N.I.C.
Posts: 2356
| SIMPLE....GET A 4 wheel frame! 100mm or 110's or mixed! Especially if you are skating WORLD CLASS(ie..Jr or Sr) There, done! |
|
| |
|
Elite Veteran
Posts: 962
Location: Frenchtown, New Jersey. USA | excelsk8 - 2009-05-10 1:29 PM
Well I think is clear as day why the ban, Richard said it, if you are racing for a spot on the world team, then you can not skate on 3 wheels, CIC doesn't approve of it, only 2 years ago the CIC didn't approve 110MM, yet you saw everyone use them everywhere except on Outdoor nationals, if you can not race with them at worlds then what is the point of wearing them on the qualifier for worlds? it makes perfect sense to me! now why the CIC doesn't allow it? I think they believe that kids should develop into the bigger wheels, this is the way the Colombian federation does it, I don't agree with the ban for all the kids, but don't think that a new comer should be on 3 110's either!
As a coach I teach my kids to start on either a 3*80-84 or 4*80's from there we move them up as their technique progresses, some can move up to 3*90 in 6 months some stay in 4*80 for a year, I believe is better for the development of the kids technique, but we all have our own way of thinking, I know there is a lot of pressure when you take your kids to competitions form the parents when they see that most of the kids winning are on 3 100-110's then they approach you and ask you ... how come my kid is not on the bigger wheels like all this other kids? I believe is up to the coach to show the parents that it might actually be worst for kids that don't belong on 3*110 to be on them just because the coach feels challenged by the parents.
Just last week in the ESS one of the parents in my team asked me why his son wasn't on the 3 big wheels, all the kids seem to do so much better, then I looked at a couple of skaters from other teams, and pointed out the horrible pronation of some new kids on the 3 big wheels, they had absolutely no control over the skates, the father saw my point and agreed. Its important we let our kids develop into technically good skaters before the big wheels!
Francisco Ramirez
Excel Speed Team
Very well stated Fran, and I agree 1000% with having the newbies on the small wheels, to put less strain on the Ligaments in the Ankle, as well as Knees.
Develop basic Technical skill-set with the ability to skate on the "Top" of the wheels, then progress to a bigger wheel......ODN as a newbie, the big wheels will only hurt Foot Control as you so nicely stated.
Happy Skating!
Pete
|
|
| |
|
Elite Veteran
Posts: 736
Location: Orlando, Florida | Francisco YOU ARE SO RIGHT, and as we get to more clinics that we do overseas, I see nothing but the smaller wheels as you mentioned. I only see the big wheels here in the USA and I agree that it is not giving the kids a fair chance to learn technique and just how to skate. |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 277
Location: Dallas, Texas | Gotta love America.....Bigger is better  lol |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 128
Location: Searcy, Arkansas- Puyallup, Washington | JoeeeD...I agree SO much. Get the little kids off the big wheels and onto 4 wheels. Teach them how to skate..AAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Fancisco...All I hear at practice from my 13-16 yr olds is, if I had 110mm he wouldn't beat me. I took my fastest boy off of his and put him on 100/90 for a practice so the other big mouth skaters would see that the wheel size is the only difference. |
|
| |
|
H.N.I.C.
Posts: 2356
| With that said, what alot of parents, skaters, coaches think now days is BIGGER means FASTER! This isn't 100% true. It hinders the little ones trying the bigger wheels, since most of their races are 5 laps and less. I think I proved that one year at Nationals on 84's while others were on 100's!
But then again, that's just me. Just an opinion. |
|
| |
3 Wheel Frames NOT alllowed at ODN
