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| I know this subject has come up before, but after some interesting phone calls throughout the week, I thought I would start it up again.
Is it time for the referees to take off their skates? My understanding is that the referees could not keep up with the skaters very well and there were quite a few bad calls because of it. The referees are there for not only the integrity of the sport, but the safety of the skaters as well. If they can’t fulfill that obligation, there needs to be a change in how the officiating is performed. These referees have to know they can’t perform their job to the fullest if they can’t even keep up with the pack. I am in no way bashing them. We need them on the floor, but maybe they can better serve their purpose by taking off their skates.
I guess the big question here is; how does something like this get started? Is this a proposal like any other improvement to the sport? Does it start at the regional rep meetings or can it be something that goes straight to the board? I know we complain about officiating, but has anyone ever thought about the process to get it improved?
Richard
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Location: Cleveland, Ohio | In short track ice, the referees don't even try. One ref. at each end of the track and one ref. at the center of the track (no other obstructions inside the track, just 3 refs.). The major meets will add a ref. sitting on a ladder at the end of each straight-a-way. |
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Extreme Veteran
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| I know in my son's best race he was DQ'd for something he did do BUT the kid he bumped out in one corner bumped him in the corner before the same way and nothing was called. If the other kid was DQ'd first then my son wouldn't have bumped him in the first place. It took 4 laps afterwards before he was ever called for it. I guess it took the refs that long to catch up to him. The short race in the quarter final he was passed, bumped pretty hard in the corner and sent out wide and no call there either.
I'm not a sore loser but I just think the officials need to make up their minds and call it the same throughout the entire meet. It wasn't just my son's races like that. Throughout the week I saw so many no calls that from the stands looked like they should've definitely been called. Then there were so many calls that only left people scratching their head thinking what in the word did the ref see that no one else did.
I'm not saying refs should stop skating but they should have a meeting before the racing starts and get it straight what they will let slide and what they will not. |
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Location: Dallas, Texas | I wonder how heated this conversation will get as people get home from their trips... |
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Location: Vinton, Virginia | Senior 4man heat 2... Enough said. What a mess. |
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Location: Midland ,Texas | puredomination - 2010-07-09 11:20 PM
I know in my son's best race he was DQ'd for something he did do BUT the kid he bumped out in one corner bumped him in the corner before the same way and nothing was called. If the other kid was DQ'd first then my son wouldn't have bumped him in the first place. It took 4 laps afterwards before he was ever called for it. I guess it took the refs that long to catch up to him. The short race in the quarter final he was passed, bumped pretty hard in the corner and sent out wide and no call there either.
I'm not a sore loser but I just think the officials need to make up their minds and call it the same throughout the entire meet. It wasn't just my son's races like that. Throughout the week I saw so many no calls that from the stands looked like they should've definitely been called. Then there were so many calls that only left people scratching their head thinking what in the word did the ref see that no one else did.
I'm not saying refs should stop skating but they should have a meeting before the racing starts and get it straight what they will let slide and what they will not.
I agree it is not fair, but as in football usually the one that retaliates is the one that is caught and penalized not the one that started it.
For the main forum discussion I am a regional meet ref and I feel like we should get rid of rolling refs and the table in the middle needs to be done away with..it can obstruct the view of people trying to get back in the box sometimes plus we need to get our sport looking more professional. |
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Location: Dallas, Texas | I wonder how heated this conversation will get as people get home from their trips... |
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Elite Veteran
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Location: Hickory nc | It will get heated, but I think changes are needed, I think we do need rolling refs but they can only see so much but I also think you need a standing ref on the corners to see what may be missed by a rolling ref, I also think maybe do it like ICE and do not have DQ"S till after the event that way the refs can discuss it instead of just doing the dq on the fly, As far as the middle keep it clear. Also I think rolling refs should be able to keep up with the skaters or at least stay out of there way.
I my self can speak from experience, of a slower ref getting in my way on my way back out for a relay tag and I am almost had to run them over to get them out of the way. Now am I a fast skater no but I still do not want something impeding my forward motion. |
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| DO AWAY WITH ROLLING REF'S THEN THAT WAY THERE WOULD BE NO REASON FOR REMOVING THE 15 FT PYLON. THIS IS ANOTHER SERIOUS ISSUE AS WE SEEN IN A MASTER'S RELAY. USARS NEEDS TO LISTEN TO THE SKATERS. BEING WE PAY THE BILLS. USARS NEEDS TO GET UP TO DATE WITH THIS CHANGING SPORT. THIS IS INLINES NOT QUAD SKATING.  |
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Elite Veteran
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Location: Hickory nc | I missed a lot of nationals so I am wondering one thing how did the removal of the 15 foot pylon play into this nationals with relays? |
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Regular
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Location: Cheyenne, WY | I was at the Regional rep meeting and the 15 foot pylon is gone...everyone decided that it was better to just get rid of the rule all together, the rule was made for safety and was removed for safety there was a lot of talk during the meeting, and most people at the meeting agreed that it comes down to the skaters paying attention when re-entering the relay box, as well as the their coach teaching the skaters how to properly re-enter the box....yes there were injuries this year because skaters collided with other skaters entering the box..however...as skaters train and learn how to re-enter the box like before, the accidents will be less and less, its all about routine....skaters are just going to have to make a complete stop once and a while when entering the box to ensure their safety and the other skaters and refs on the floor.... |
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Elite Veteran
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Location: Hickory nc | yes one of those injuries including a kid having some broken bones in the se region so I still think we need the 15 foot pylon.
Edited by ncspeed 2010-07-11 10:45 AM
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Extreme Veteran
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Location: Atlanta GA | LOL, there is that 15 foot pylon thing again..
IMO, its safer without it, we did great without it up until a few years ago, its not needed now! I think its fine how it is now.. |
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Location: North Texas | What if we open up that end of the floor and create a bigger arc for the skaters? We can move the track down. Or we can make everyone on that end of the floor get off. We could get the chairs off the floor and move the stairs to the tabulation area off to one side and give the skaters more room. |
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Location: Searcy, Arkansas- Puyallup, Washington | We had a couple of falls at nationals because skaters couldn't get back into the box. Master 2 man and Sr 2 man races both come to mind.
I have been in favor of the 15 foot cone, HOWEVER, here is something I never really considered until now, and I think we should ALL think about it. One of the biggest issues with the 15 foot cone is when a skater comes into the box from the side they are now skating the other direction. What I am saying is they are now going towards the refs HEAD ON! Along with any other skaters that may have come into the box from the top. I think there is more danger here than anything and something I never thought of. In the quad days we went straight through the box, in a straight line, but now we go so fast we go as far as we can past cone 2, then start cutting back into traffic... think about that for a second. Very scary.
I'm not going to bash the refing, I think we had a very good group of ref's out there this year, instead, it's the rules that could be an issue. My 4 man team missed quailifing for the semi because one of our skaters fall and first place took off and lapped the group, the problem came in to play on the last 5 when we had 2nd, 3rd, 4th, in a group and 1st place came up to lap the group. The refs weren't sure what to do for over 2.5 laps, so skaters where told to move out and hold positions, however the 1st place skatere got in the middle of the pack, so no one could move. I saw lapped skaters become an issue in the out come of many races and I'm wondering how we could better handle that situation.
i had a great time and really enjoyed being back at nationals after 5 years and I'm looking forward to a great nationals in Ft. Wayne! |
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Extreme Veteran
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Location: Atlanta GA | Ron, that is my argument, and had been the whole time, skaters using all 15 feet, and going straight toward the skaters on the trak, and also the refs.
I didnt see any problem in the sr 2 man with getting back in the box though..
In the 2 man, in the heat and semi, my team along with another came around to lap 3rd place, and to prevent any confusion, we backed off.. that makes it a little easier for the refs.. |
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Location: Pennsylvania | The one official, leaving names out, I'm sure was skating on a peg leg or something. They were limping on skates.. not a good sign let alone couldn't make it around the relay box.. they literally cut through it but even worse when they tried to make a call it took them 3 laps to try and get close enough and still ended up well behind the skater they were trying to blow the whistle at. I am just saying, if you can't manage to skate a 40m track then you might want to pick up a different job like at the officials table by the finish line instead of on skates. And BTW, has anyone noticed the increasing number of falls officials have? Before it was a very odd occurrence now I see at least one a meet.
But in all seriousness.. officiating is much much harder than it looks. But what in my opinion is completely inexcusable is a lack of consistency. I watched one heat of a divisions relay where it was 4 to qualify and they DQ'd 5th, 6th, and 7th, for distance the first time they were lapped but the next heat of the same division they allowed 5th place to stay on the track and get lapped 3 times! If the officials did everything consistently then we wouldn't have anything to complain about because it would the normal. Instead they change their minds race after race. They barely ever make the same call in a similar situation anymore which is the only problem I have. Whatever they call they should call all the time no matter what and then that would be the standard. |
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Extreme Veteran
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Location: Atlanta GA | *** clicking "like" ****
I spoke to one official, and thats what we spoke about, the inconsistency of the calls.. but in all truthfullness, its in the past, not we have to figure out how to make it BETTER for next year..
and everyone can come to NIRA nationals and try to earn a championship!! LOL |
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Veteran
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Location: Dallas, Texas | sos18,(i think this is keith carrol??) hit it on the head. the lack of consistency was apparent in quite a few races. Sometimes, even in one race. Youd see one person get DQd for a small ride out or ride in, then someone would get slammed into on the next lap and nothing would happen. Was a little frustrating to watch and be a part of but believe me, i sure as hell wouldnt want to be a ref at any national event. |
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| How about standing officials? |
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Extreme Veteran
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| How about good idea Hank. Maybe then they wouldn't be trying to watch a race and watch where they are going at the same time. I bet then since their eyes would always be on the races vs. on where they themselves are skating it may get rid of the inconsistencies. |
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Location: MS | Standing refs ounds really good. Have another ref with an earpiece sitting right next to the announcer. First time they call your number...if you don't leave then they call you by name. |
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Location: Lincoln, Nebraska | puredomination - 2010-07-11 11:10 PM
Maybe then they wouldn't be trying to watch a race and watch where they are going at the same time. I bet then since their eyes would always be on the races vs. on where they themselves are skating it may get rid of the inconsistencies.
This is an extremely good point.... rolling refs have to watch where they are going as well as the race. On the faster races, it looked like the refs were doing circle drills.... and you know how much we all love those.
I'm in favor of getting the refs off skates.... but the one thing I DO like about a rolling ref is the ability to notify a lapped skater to get over.... of course that could be left up the the passing skater.... OVER! |
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Extreme Veteran
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Location: Illinois | I think standing refs for the relays is a good idea. The problem comes in when you are no longer a part of the main pack. As you fall from the main pack you are trying to get into the box at the same time that the refs are coming through. Why they skate through the relay box is beyond me, but I ran into them twice in a 2k relay as I was looking back to find my partner. Granted, we didn't stand a chance to make it out of our heat, but why should we be at a disadvantage because we are behind? As a skater, I have to go through the box or I get DQ'd. Having 3 refs come through the box with me and then proceed to turn immediately after they leave the box forces me to cross their path twice since they tend to skate on the outside edge of the box forcing me to skate the inside.
It was unfortunate that the floor was so screwed up this year. We really needed to move the track away from skater check in. There just wasn't much room for the skaters to slow down before reentering the track. I saw many races where the skaters were past the tape line for skater check in and were forced to dodge coaches in their attempts to get back to the box. |
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Member
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| Just because it works on ice, doesn't mean it is the anwser for inlines. Although I do beleive that something needs to be done, it will not happen as an edict from the top. Start locally. Experiment with standing refs (or cameras...or electronic IDs...or the announcer...or WHATEVER) at league meets, then invitationals. Once the skaters, refs and USARS are comfortable with an idea and the refs don't have cramped feet and are skating delerious laps around the relay box at the end of the meet, then making the changes at nationals makes more sense. |
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Location: Midland ,Texas | ustabeawannabe - 2010-07-12 10:50 AM
Just because it works on ice, doesn't mean it is the anwser for inlines. Although I do beleive that something needs to be done, it will not happen as an edict from the top. Start locally. Experiment with standing refs (or cameras...or electronic IDs...or the announcer...or WHATEVER) at league meets, then invitationals. Once the skaters, refs and USARS are comfortable with an idea and the refs don't have cramped feet and are skating delerious laps around the relay box at the end of the meet, then making the changes at nationals makes more sense.
There is alot of stuff that gets done at local meets that make more sence than at nationals.
Example : continue the heat even though there is only 3 teams/skaters left..I understand that something can happen causing another to be dq'd or that its not fair to the other heats...but arent those two examples just a little bit nitpicking. Steps to make this sport more mainstream should include stupid little laws like this that make people not want to watch it. I mean if the skating community thinks its stupid imagine what someone off the street would think. |
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Location: Midland ,Texas | ustabeawannabe - 2010-07-12 10:50 AM
Just because it works on ice, doesn't mean it is the anwser for inlines. Although I do beleive that something needs to be done, it will not happen as an edict from the top. Start locally. Experiment with standing refs (or cameras...or electronic IDs...or the announcer...or WHATEVER) at league meets, then invitationals. Once the skaters, refs and USARS are comfortable with an idea and the refs don't have cramped feet and are skating delerious laps around the relay box at the end of the meet, then making the changes at nationals makes more sense.
Oh and one think that is done on ice compared to inline. That stupid start buzzer gun...ice atleast uses a electronic gun that sounds like a gun and flashes=/] |
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| 3racers&acrewchief - 2010-07-11 11:19 PM
Standing refs ounds really good. Have another ref with an earpiece sitting right next to the announcer. First time they call your number...if you don't leave then they call you by name.
This is done @ ODN and worlds in the elims, why not indoors.
I would add if a skater ignores their name being announced, then they are DQ'd from their next race.
or
have a ref standing at the finish line and DQ all skaters from there either with a whistle or maybe a board with the skaters number on it........this idea may work better if the ref is on the other side of the floor (between cones 2 & 3), this would avoid confusion with relays. |
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| kufman - 2010-07-12 9:49 AM
I think standing refs for the relays is a good idea. The problem comes in when you are no longer a part of the main pack. As you fall from the main pack you are trying to get into the box at the same time that the refs are coming through. Why they skate through the relay box is beyond me, but I ran into them twice in a 2k relay as I was looking back to find my partner. Granted, we didn't stand a chance to make it out of our heat, but why should we be at a disadvantage because we are behind? As a skater, I have to go through the box or I get DQ'd. Having 3 refs come through the box with me and then proceed to turn immediately after they leave the box forces me to cross their path twice since they tend to skate on the outside edge of the box forcing me to skate the inside.
It was unfortunate that the floor was so screwed up this year. We really needed to move the track away from skater check in. There just wasn't much room for the skaters to slow down before reentering the track. I saw many races where the skaters were past the tape line for skater check in and were forced to dodge coaches in their attempts to get back to the box.
Little off subject here but I couldn't resist.
Screwed up floor?????? This is an exaggeration the junior men and world class men were turning mid to low 8 second laps, this was happening on all of the tracks in division and relays. I would say any floor capable of this is pretty good. As far as skaters beyond the tape..that always happens.
I have seen just as many accidents in the past with the 15ft. pylon as without it. It all comes down to the skaters paying attention.
As far as standing refs go , I believe they would be able to call a more accurate race if they were stationary.
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Location: Concord CA. | ustabeawannabe - 2010-07-12 2:25 PM 3racers&acrewchief - 2010-07-11 11:19 PM Standing refs ounds really good. Have another ref with an earpiece sitting right next to the announcer. First time they call your number...if you don't leave then they call you by name. This is done @ ODN and worlds in the elims, why not indoors. I would add if a skater ignores their name being announced, then they are DQ'd from their next race. or have a ref standing at the finish line and DQ all skaters from there either with a whistle or maybe a board with the skaters number on it........this idea may work better if the ref is on the other side of the floor (between cones 2 & 3 ), this would avoid confusion with relays. Dont quote me on this but from what I heard the tabulators were attempting to use the Lynx cameras to determine the Elim as they crossed. When the bells/elims came faster they couldn't keep up and the rest is history. Standing Refs will never work.. you think there are issues now? lol wait till they have to try and blow skaters over when about to be lapped. How about fouled out skaters?? You see skaters attempted to be blown out by refs and they keep going cause they aren't sure who the ref is gunning for... now you think thats gonna improve with standing refs??!! lol I bet not. The skaters will pass that standing ref in less than a second. I suppose they are supposed to look back and say did ya mean me?? Sorry gang... not gonna happen. Standing refs will have no situational awareness of what going on within the race only their little slice of pie so to speak.
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Extreme Veteran
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Location: Illinois | Don - 2010-07-12 9:09 PM
Little off subject here but I couldn't resist.
Screwed up floor?????? This is an exaggeration the junior men and world class men were turning mid to low 8 second laps, this was happening on all of the tracks in division and relays. I would say any floor capable of this is pretty good. As far as skaters beyond the tape..that always happens.
I have seen just as many accidents in the past with the 15ft. pylon as without it. It all comes down to the skaters paying attention.
As far as standing refs go , I believe they would be able to call a more accurate race if they were stationary.
They may have been turning low lap times... but then a lap later they were laying on the floor. The floor was very patchy. Low lap times were possbile, but all you had to do was hit a bad patch and down you went. There is a reason that they didn't move the track down the floor. They did try and move it down, but went right back due to so many people falling. Turn 3 was unpredictable. It always felt like you were skating on a rough sidewalk with indoor wheels on and sometimes it didn't hold. The pros will always turn low lap times, they will also us a new set of wheels every race if they need to. It doesn't mean the floor is good. At our regionals, Harry was able to turn 9.0's on a floor that required all grip wheels... and still didn't hold. You just can't judge a floor by the way the pros skate.
Edited by kufman 2010-07-13 5:57 AM
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| kufman - 2010-07-13 5:42 AM
Don - 2010-07-12 9:09 PM
Little off subject here but I couldn't resist.
Screwed up floor?????? This is an exaggeration the junior men and world class men were turning mid to low 8 second laps, this was happening on all of the tracks in division and relays. I would say any floor capable of this is pretty good. As far as skaters beyond the tape..that always happens.
I have seen just as many accidents in the past with the 15ft. pylon as without it. It all comes down to the skaters paying attention.
As far as standing refs go , I believe they would be able to call a more accurate race if they were stationary.
They may have been turning low lap times... but then a lap later they were laying on the floor. The floor was very patchy. Low lap times were possbile, but all you had to do was hit a bad patch and down you went. There is a reason that they didn't move the track down the floor. They did try and move it down, but went right back due to so many people falling. Turn 3 was unpredictable. It always felt like you were skating on a rough sidewalk with indoor wheels on and sometimes it didn't hold. The pros will always turn low lap times, they will also us a new set of wheels every race if they need to. It doesn't mean the floor is good. At our regionals, Harry was able to turn 9.0's on a floor that required all grip wheels... and still didn't hold. You just can't judge a floor by the way the pros skate.
OK.............how about Walter Langley breaking all of the records ? He is Grand Veteran. My point is the floor was not as bad as some of you will say it was. As a matter of fact I did not hear any skaters in the NW region complain about the floor. As for corner 3 being bad, there is almost always one corner of any floor that has some kind of problem. Also typically at nationals by the end you see a lot of skaters on softer wheels. I did not see that either.........And I disagree that you can't judge a floor by the way the pro's or the junior men skate as they are the ones turning the fastest laps, if there is a problem with the floor they are usually the ones to complain first. As for one fast lap and then a fall uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh where were you at. In the senior four man final they were turning mid 43 to low 44 five lap splits. JUST SAYIN |
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Location: Illinois | Did you skate on the floor Don? |
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| No....... but I do have one of the faster junior men as a son and he had no complaints. Nor did anyone else from our team. As a matter of fact there were numerous records broken by our team. What does it matter if I skated on the floor. I am simply going off of what I seen and heard. My point is the floor was not as bad as some people are saying it was. I think because of what happened at the begining of nationals , that situation had planted a seed in peoples heads that the floor was bad no matter what. And then if skaters didn't do well they had an excuse. Was the floor perfect no, but it wasn't the the worst there has been at nationals either by a long shot. |
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Location: Illinois | If you didn't skate, you can't comment. He said, she said doesn't mean anything. |
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Location: Searcy, Arkansas- Puyallup, Washington | I thought the floor was fine and believe me, I've skated on worse at nationals. I saw a lot of records broken, so something had to be right.
Edited by RacerX 2010-07-13 7:57 AM
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| kufman - 2010-07-13 7:36 AM
If you didn't skate, you can't comment. He said, she said doesn't mean anything.
Whatever dude......What division are you and how did you do? Because the way you are acting it would suggest you didn't do to well. |
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Location: Searcy, Arkansas- Puyallup, Washington | is CRYmary boys a division this year? LMAO
Sorry Matt, that was funny!
Ron D |
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| .
Edited by Don 2010-07-13 7:54 AM
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Extreme Veteran
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Location: Illinois | I am not crying about the floor. My only problem was stepping on a cone. I placed in one distance and would have placed in another except for my brief mental lapse with the cone. How many distances did you place in Ron?
So if the floor was so good, why did we skate the same track the whole week including novice and quads? |
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Officiating at IDN
