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Location: Puyallup, WA | Wait - so now you have to have PLACED in something to have a legitimate comment about the floor? Seriously? Grow up. |
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Location: Illinois | RPfander3 - 2010-07-13 10:49 AM
Wait - so now you have to have PLACED in something to have a legitimate comment about the floor? Seriously? Grow up.
Anybody who skated on the floor has a valid opinion. Anyone who attacks me personally will get the same in return. Tell your boy to grow up and maybe we can have a descent conversation. |
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Location: Dallas, Texas | i skated wednesday, thursday, friday and the floor got progressively better as the week went on. Corner three was sketchy as hell and i saw quite a few falls. It was my first IDN so i have no clue if there were more or less or average amount of falls. But judging from my experience i wouldnt of wanted to skate those first few days. WED, i was on all orange hypers and slipping, thursday it got a little better, and then by friday i had to throw on some white hypers due to gripping too much. Very unpredictable.
But as far as officiating goes i was very shocked as to how inconsistent the calls were. I am not a ref nor would i want that job, but for some people that train thier butts off and go to IDN to get blown out of their heat, semi, final by a poor call just sucks. Thats a ton of money, time, and commitment wasted. I know judgement calls are not always going to be perfect, but a little consistency is appreciated. (AND no, i wasnt DQd for anything just saw friends and teammates get screwed in my opinion by poor calls) |
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| Track was moved at least twice; I think 3 different tracks were used (2, 3, 4) |
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Location: Illinois | It did move once, but I believe it went back shortly after. |
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Location: Searcy, Arkansas- Puyallup, Washington | 2 forths Matt, set one national record (that got broke the next day) and started back practicing in January 2010 after a 4 year layoff, so I'm thinking thats not too bad.
Everyone skated on the same floor, so it was the same surface for everyone. Besides, it's just skating, at the end of the day, you're going to take your medal home, toss it in a drawer, and forget about it.
Oh, and we skated at least 2 different tracks that I saw. |
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Location: Searcy, Arkansas- Puyallup, Washington | Attack you personally Matt??? I made a joke. I even said that in my comment, but it seems you take yourself way too seriously.
Word of advice Matt, This sport is way to small to make enemies. I'm done talking to you, have a great day and I'm sure I'll see you at one of your practices soon. |
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Location: Roselle Park, NJ. | the floor was great, it might have gotten into people's heads, but it was more than fine, I sucked but it wasn't due to the floor. i was the best national floor i've skated in for the past 3 years.... some will always like the floor some will not.
I think indoor skating is becoming more and more a ref sport, like figure skating, I never saw people being able to be robbed of their medals the way they are now by bad calls, I don't think the refs are point blank going after my skaters, but it happens that they do make mistakes and the wrong people are paying for the refs mistakes! I protested interference in my primary 2 mix team and the official response was that it was really hard to enforce the rules with the little kids.... EXCUSE me? hard to enforce the rules? does it break my heart to see kids being dq'd? yes, but it brakes it even more when my kids are robbed of their final because the refs think is hard to enforce the rules with the kids! I had two protest this nationals and both times the official that responded to me told me I might as well not do it, as they were judgement calls and they were going to be thrown out... Really? shoot down my protest before I even tell you what it was?
Francisco Ramirez
Excel Speed Team
Edited by excelsk8 2010-07-13 10:58 AM
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Location: east coast | crymary boys is funny. was that standard or novice |
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Location: Whitehall, PA | There was nothing wrong with the floor.
Yes I skated it, no I'm not a pro, but I saw no issues with it all week nor heard any complaints from anyone until now that we're home and bored with ourselves. It was a fine surface. 30 some records aren't broken with a bad floor coating. I have no idea why the track was moved and then brought back, but the only people I saw laying on the floor were those who threw bad passes or just plain tripped up themselves. I did a ton of video recording all week and saw quite a bit, but almost none of it seemed to have anything to do with grip issues. |
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Location: Searcy, Arkansas- Puyallup, Washington | Thanks Jeff... ;-)
Matt, I liked the floor. Best I've seen in a long time. |
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Location: Puyallup, WA | The majority of the people commenting here say that the floor was good. We had the largest team at Nationals this year - and not ONE person complained about the floor conditions. Our team consisted of pro men all the way down to juvenile girls. The majority of them placed in something - and several broke national records.
If you are using the floor for an excuse, nobody is buying it. You said yourself that the only reason you didn't place in both races is because you stepped on a cone - you didn't say it was because the floor was bad. So I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. You were rude to Don and told him that because he didn't skate on the floor, that he basically didn't know what he was talking about - then you attempted to insult Ron by insinuating that because he didn't place, then he also did not know what he was talking about. Perhaps some of your perception has more to do with your novice status than the condition of the floor? Not trying to be rude - but novice skaters generally have less experience at nationals than the elite division skaters. How many nationals have you skated? Do you know how this floor compared to previous years in Lincoln? I've skated on Lincoln's floor a few more times than you have (trust me on this) and loved it this year - as always. They did a great job fixing the corner that had issues. You are going to have to come up with something else to complain about. |
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Location: Illinois | I have skated 3 nationals, two of them at Lincoln. I won novice the last time I was at Lincoln and I have skated standard the past two years and placed 2nd last year on a much worse floor. I wasn't using it as as an excuse. I merely stated that due to the poor floor conditions, we couldn't move the track in order to create a descent looping area for the relays. I still find it amazing that we didn't have interference problems at the end of the floor as skaters weaved through other skaters, coaches, and USARS personel. At that point, Don jumped on me and said the floor was awesome which I didn't agree with and I stated my reasons. Don can't tell me what I felt on the floor if he didn't skate on it! As for Ron, I don't take jokes or personal attacks on the forums. If he wants to tell me to skate Crybabby division, do it in an e-mail, facebook or in a PM but don't put that crap in the forums. What he said was not funny even if he thought it was. Either contribute to the conversion or shut up! The forums are a great means of communication and can be very useful for having a descent conversation about the given topics. Trash talking and making stupid jokes about people just to cut them down is a waste of bandwidth and provides a poor image for our sport.
Also, when I pay a large amount of money to skate 6 races I expect the floor to be the best I have skated on all year. This was not the case.
Edited by kufman 2010-07-13 2:12 PM
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Location: Puyallup, WA | Perhaps we (you) need to give the skaters more credit. Would it be nice to have unlimited floor space for returning to the gate area? Absolutely. But we have to work with what we've got and the skaters are good enough to do that. I saw 2 instances of skaters having trouble returning to the gate area, and both of them were because the returning skaters were not paying close enough attention (one was a master man who was trying to talk to his coach during the return, and the other was a sophomore man who misjudged the gap). I do think that the officials could have been more vigilant in keeping the ready area clear of coaches - but the skaters didn't let it affect their races.
Perhaps you also need to realize that the National floor is different every year. The Lincoln floor (in my opinion) is the best of all the national floors. It has nothing to do with how much money you pay in entry fees, and there are definitely other floors (in rinks) that people probably consider "better". So if you go in every year expecting that the floor is going to be the "best you have skated on", then you are likely going to be disappointed. Skate a few more nationals and then see how you feel about Lincoln's floor. Three nationals is just not enough to make a fair comparison.
And, for what it's worth - read Don's post again. All he said was that "screwed up floor... was an exaggeration", I don't consider that jumping all over you. You took it too personally and then attempted to belittle him for HIS opinion by telling him that he couldn't have one if he didn't skate (basically). Ron was trying to make a joke - some people got it (Jeff Foster), you decided to make it a personal attack. You would have come off looking a lot better if your response would have been "ha ha grampa" or something along those lines - and then maybe things wouldn't have gotten so heated. |
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Location: east coast | you know the saying, good skaters skate good most of the time. great skaters, skate good all of the time. no matter what the conditions. |
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Location: Tulsa OKlahoma | Well put, Jeff, well put indeed.
Paul |
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Location: Roanoke, Va | For anyone who saw the floor on Saturday afternoon, the floor we raced on was 2000X better. I appreciate everyone who donated their vacation time trying to improve what could have been a really bad situation. I skated on the floor, I thought well after taking a year off and coming back to one of the most competitive divisions, the floor was fine. As far as returning to the gate area, if you practice doing it properly, there was no issue getting back in. In classic 2 man we had plenty of room, and that was after the packs were seperated. Just my .02 |
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| STANDING REFS WILL WORK, regardless of what BusBoy thinks. And here is how:
Have all refs standing with exception to 1 on skates in the center. This 1 ref has a headset and his/her only job is to blow out the DQ'd skater. This 1 ref does not skate around unless a DQ is called by the standing refs. When the standing ref calls a DQ he radios it into the 1 ref in the center, who then proceeds to skate around like they do now and points at and blows out to DQ'd skater.
This is basically the same thing that's happening now, only the refs making the calls have all eyes on the skating and this way there is still that ref on skates that can catch up to the DQ'd skater. With only one ref on skates it's very unlikely this ref will get in the way of skaters on relays as well. |
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| By-the-way, how did this get into a floor conversation? Start a new thread about that or something. But if ya'll must know I skated absolutely horrible. IT WAS THE FLOOR'S FAULT!!!!! Yeah right, truthfully the floor was super fantastic. Once you put what everyone was saying about turn three out of your mind then you realized there wasn't even an issue with it. I would have been but they fixed it. I've skated Lincold and others, to me this floor was even smoother and grippier than Lincold usually is. |
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Location: Concord CA. | puredomination - 2010-07-14 10:44 AM STANDING REFS WILL WORK, regardless of what BusBoy thinks. And here is how: Have all refs standing with exception to 1 on skates in the center. This 1 ref has a headset and his/her only job is to blow out the DQ'd skater. This 1 ref does not skate around unless a DQ is called by the standing refs. When the standing ref calls a DQ he radios it into the 1 ref in the center, who then proceeds to skate around like they do now and points at and blows out to DQ'd skater. This is basically the same thing that's happening now, only the refs making the calls have all eyes on the skating and this way there is still that ref on skates that can catch up to the DQ'd skater. With only one ref on skates it's very unlikely this ref will get in the way of skaters on relays as well. ? right I can just see it.. The ref gets the call... has to then spot/locate the offending team on the floor... then do a "wind up" to catch the skater(s) to DQ them. That would take twice as long to DQ a team/skater. So how would your 1 ref on skates work for multiple DQ's and/or lapped skaters on opposite ends of the floor?? |
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Location: Reading, PA | Maybe there are other things to look at here... |
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Location: CA | The standing ref fix is way easier than that. Just do the same damn thing as ODN ...radio the call to the booth and announce the DQ's over the PA. End of story. The day of the rolling referee is over. They do more harm than good. I'm sure they are nervous travelling at such speeds much less trying to make the right calls. |
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| A wind up? LOL! Are we speaking speed skating terms here or baseball? |
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Location: Cheyenne, WY | how about a number tree by the finish line if ur number is lit up that means you have been disqualified and you have to clear the floor..then there wont be an excuse ur number would be the same as your spot on the starting line |
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Location: Hickory nc | I say just do like ice, announce the dq after the race, that eliminates the ref having to chase a skater down. |
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| a few things here, the floor wasn't terrible, granted it wasn't the best nationals floor i have ever skated on, that would be 2008 in lincoln(check the record books), but it was definitely wasn't the worst. there have been a few years on the travel floor that have been real bad! second, you can't have a dq board, because some skaters simply are not observant enough while racing to notice if his name or number has been put on a board. and third, i dont really think that we should incorporate all the things that ice officials do. i agree with standing refs, but there has to be a way to dq the skater while the race is going on, rather than wait till after the race. because then you get into arguments about the elements of the race changing because the dq'ed skater was still participating in the race till the end. i believe that the announcer would be more than capable to pull skaters off the floor. first say the number and if the skater does not respond call him/her by name. if its with one or 2 laps to go, then maybe the dq could wait till after the race, seeing as that happens now with rolling refs. mostly due to lack of speed (no disrespect intended what so ever to officials).
-Hank
Edited by sk8dude1388 2010-07-14 11:09 PM
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Location: Midland ,Texas | I agree too that a announcer should DQ the skaters also. The only reason it takes people 2-3 whistles to get off the floor is usually either they do not know who they are pointing at or have been taught to ignore a whistle untill the 3rd one (that is how I was taught). Both can be fixed by first a short tone or sound over the PA followed by announcing name and number of the one being DQ'd. |
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Location: east coast | how about having refs. in shape to keep up with the action. it is hard to make a call from 30 feet away. if you watch some of the video, the circles they were skating could not be any smaller. but the chairs were there i forgot. with a lot of skaters skating the older divisions, and usarollersports raising the age to ref what do you expect?
Edited by jeff foster 2010-07-15 11:06 AM
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Extreme Veteran
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Location: Fort Pierce, FL | IMHO...I've been doing this since 1964 and coaching since 84....I thought the floor was great and a damn site better than the floor we use when we are not in Lincoln. Anyone old enough to remember the old Lincoln floor would thank the Lord for the floor we had this year............Stop complaining about the gun and pay more attention to the person firing the gun, This year we had one person who fired the gun as soon as all of the skaters were set and the other counted to three after everyone was set, needs to be more consistent........15 ft. pylon is a lost cause, better learn to adapt...........(For the record my team did pretty well and I did not have one DQ, I say that because of my next statement as I didn't want anyone to think I was a whiner)....This was the worst refereed Nationals I have seen since the disaster in Ft Worth when we switched from wood to plastic wheels. Standing referees does work and we have used them in the SFSL for over 10 years since Ed Mueller first proposed the suggestion to USARS. If we want one reason we are losing some skaters we can point the finger directly at the officiating as who wants to train like we do, spend the money we do, travel like we do and have it all taken away by inept officials....IMHO |
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| dopey358 - 2010-07-15 5:19 PM
If we want one reason we are losing some skaters we can point the finger directly at the officiating as who wants to train like we do, spend the money we do, travel like we do and have it all taken away by inept officials....IMHO
Exactly how all off the parents of my skaters feel. I can't say that I blame them. |
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Location: Hickory nc | HP-Master - 2010-07-16 4:20 AM
dopey358 - 2010-07-15 5:19 PM
If we want one reason we are losing some skaters we can point the finger directly at the officiating as who wants to train like we do, spend the money we do, travel like we do and have it all taken away by inept officials....IMHO
Exactly how all off the parents of my skaters feel. I can't say that I blame them.
I can see the parent point of view and the skaters from this statement very easy. As a skater we do train hard we save our hard earn money, and even take time away from work to go to these events. And this statement is not to bash on any officials, where as a official they practice with teams, they get the same type of training and work as we do, but there is one difference. When they go to these events they have to pay for very little, there hotels are taken care of if they fly in that is taken care of, and I am sure a few other things are taken care of from the meet director. And they go out and blow a few calls or are inconsistent with there calls and maybe dq a skater that did nothing wrong at all to get that dq whose parents or them selves has a lot of money tied up in this event and time. It all seems like a total waste and maybe in the back of there head they are like why even bother if all I am doing is wasting money.
I am not saying that the official are not doing a good job they just need to be straight across the board with there calls, and do away with this judgment call BS. To me a judgment call is like someone is assume they a person did it and you know what assume means.
There been times when I have seen officials dq some one for something they did nothing wrong and the parents and coaches had video proof and the refs did not even wanna look at it saying the call is done and over with. In most pro sports they have replays to see if the call is good or not, and heck in ice they even review video to see if there all is right. |
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| Excellent debates......now.......We, as skaters, coaches, and parents, fund USARS. We do have a voice, maybe it doesn't seem like it sometimes, but we do. There are at least 2-3 people commenting on this thread that are highly respected throughout our skating community and would have their thoughts and opinions listened too by our NGB. I ask you; how can this be set in motion? Why would this not be like any other proposal? If it is different, how so?
Richard |
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Location: Fort Pierce, FL | I would disagree with you somewhat Richard. When it comes to officiating we do NOT have a voice. Certainly we do with rules but NOT with the quality of the officiating in general. I think if we had the coaches fill out a rating card after all the larger invitationals and IDN and chose our officials based on that rating we might get some results, however, due to the small number of available officials in the pool that might not be conceivable. I would also like to add (this might be my paranoia coming through) that lately i've noticed that whenever I question a call or even just ask nicely for clarification on something it seems that the officials in question become indignant and even somewhat offended that I would dare to question their actions and they seem to take it out on other skaters on my team later in the same meet. This could just be my imagination but I can point to numerous instances of this happening and they can't all be just coincidence. Anyway...IMHO...something MUST change or we will just continue to lose skaters in the coming years.
Harry |
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Location: east coast | i am not sure the quality refs are not there. i know i would put our leagues refs up against them any day of the week. i think you have to be 35 now to get on the floor at nationals right. unless they rasied the age again. our league refs can keep up and see what is going on. the good ole boy network is alive and well. |
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Location: Hickory nc | dopey358 - 2010-07-16 12:23 PM
I would disagree with you somewhat Richard. When it comes to officiating we do NOT have a voice. Certainly we do with rules but NOT with the quality of the officiating in general. I think if we had the coaches fill out a rating card after all the larger invitationals and IDN and chose our officials based on that rating we might get some results, however, due to the small number of available officials in the pool that might not be conceivable. I would also like to add (this might be my paranoia coming through) that lately i've noticed that whenever I question a call or even just ask nicely for clarification on something it seems that the officials in question become indignant and even somewhat offended that I would dare to question their actions and they seem to take it out on other skaters on my team later in the same meet. This could just be my imagination but I can point to numerous instances of this happening and they can't all be just coincidence. Anyway...IMHO...something MUST change or we will just continue to lose skaters in the coming years.
Harry
No its not paranoia, I think some head refs get that way when a call is question by a coach, it is like they do not want to hear it and get on with the next race. I understand that we are on a time frame when it comes to meets, but at the same point you want to make sure you give all the skaters a chance to race and a fair race at that, and makes calls across the board, and what I mean by this is call one skater for one thing but dont call another skater for doing the same thing. |
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| I'm glad it's not my job to make those calls.
How are the rules different in ice as opposed to inlines? Are the ice skaters allowed to make contact like we do? Maybe some of our rules need to be changed to make standing officials work.
Even with younger, faster officials, there's still going to be mistakes. Plus there are some skaters that are very good at dirty little tricks.
If there's a certain official you dont like, or you feel is unfair, ask if he/she is working that meet. If so, dont support it. The organizer will get the picture pretty quick. |
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Location: Hickory nc | buster - 2010-07-16 7:03 PM
I'm glad it's not my job to make those calls.
How are the rules different in ice as opposed to inlines? Are the ice skaters allowed to make contact like we do? Maybe some of our rules need to be changed to make standing officials work.
Even with younger, faster officials, there's still going to be mistakes. Plus there are some skaters that are very good at dirty little tricks.
If there's a certain official you dont like, or you feel is unfair, ask if he/she is working that meet. If so, dont support it. The organizer will get the picture pretty quick.
The thing is you do not know who is officiating till you get there and by then I am sure you do not want to wait your $$$. As far as rules I am not sure what similarities there is between the two. |
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Location: CA | everyone is making this too complicated. Refs stand during NIRA and they Stand at World's and they Stand at ODN. Officiate the same way. No need to change the rules roller skaters don't have 16 inch blades on their feet. Bumping is part of the sport, contact is expected. But when calls are blown due to positioning the idea of the rolling ref must be looked at. All sports evolve, even baseball has instant replay. Why does this body refuse to change or even explore the possibility?? Maybe run some tests at the league level just like was said before on this thread. See if different ideas work or not. |
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| this may sound dumb! but when and where did the corner refs GO! we had them for years! and now there are none. just bring back the corner judges and be done with it!
if the rolling refs aren't up to par then add a skating portion to there refs test! lets say they need to be able to do at least a 12 second lap or something of that nature. as far as the 15 foot pylon get over it! everyone skated for years with know cone! and for a few lousy years it was there and everyones spoiled! geese! push your partner harder to scrub off more of your speed if your that darn fast! |
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| Harry, I have to throw one back at ya...this is copied from the USARS speed rule book:
SR720 DUTIES AND AUTHORITY OF THE CHIEF REFEREE
SR720.1 The referee must be on skates and follow the competitors as closely as possible at a safe distance on the
inside of the track so as not to interfere with the competitor on the track. The referee’s duties are to
insure that each race is a fair contest and that all speed competitive rules are enforced. If the referee
observes a skater during a race committing a technical, personal or team foul, then it is the duty of the
referee to disqualify that skater.
SR730 DUTIES AND AUTHORITY OF ASSISTANT REFEREES
SR730.1 Assistant referees will have the same duties and authority as the chief referee during the skating of races,
but the chief referee will remain the final authority and may overrule an assistant referee or corner
referee.
SR735 DUTIES OF CORNER REFEREES
SR735.1 The Corner Referee is a supporting official, white shirt/blouse black slacks/skirt, this position is NOT on
skates and requires enough physical ability to chase and replace pylons quickly. Rolling refs are a rule book requirement and therefore subject to a change by the people.....I know this doesn't cover the quality of officiating, but changing the rule and getting officials off their skates could put them in a position during the race to make better calls. Harry, I don't know you personally, but I do know you are one of those voices that should be listened too by our NGB.
Richard
Edited by Richard Cassube 2010-07-17 7:34 PM
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Officiating at IDN
