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Location: MS | So I look at the pro men 5000 results and it is full of scratches? I hear there was a rerun of the race and most refused to race? What happened????????????????????
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Elite Veteran
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Location: Hickory nc | Basically the re run was cause of officiating error, and only Will Bowen and Jonathan Blair skated the re run while the other guys did not out of protest I guess. |
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Veteran
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Location: MS | Protest? I thought that was something the coaches did. I thought the skaters were supposed to skate? Did the sponsors say nothing? Did it cause a placement change that put a sponsor that was going to be on the podium off. This is strange there has to be more to the story.
Edited by 3racers&acrewchief 2010-07-09 5:13 PM
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Elite Veteran
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Location: Hickory nc | I mean as in they didnt skate the rerun cause they all ready skated a 50 lap race Idk I am not there sure it created drama |
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Extreme Veteran
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Location: Murfreesboro, TN | they didnt want to reskate it from what i heard cause the placements for that race wouldnt change the overall standings because joey mantia had enough points going in that he had already clinched 1st overall. they wanted to reskate the race with the number of skaters that were on the floor at the point the error was made. which would of made 7 to 9 people on the line to reskate the whole 50 laps. so will bowen(the one who disputed the call) and jonathan blair were the only ones out of the seven to get on the line for the race.
Edited by the_merc 2010-07-10 1:11 AM
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Veteran
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Location: MS | I heard there was a lot of booing because the others didn't come to the line. Where were the sponsors? Did they not have any input? Don't they realize that when charlie skater wearing the xyz uniform is being booed it is also the xyz company being booed? Later on when folks pull out their wallet they buy from abc because they were ticked at xyz for allowing unsportsmanlike conduct. I guess you had to be there cause after seeing a few remarks here and talking to some folks I still don't understand. Right now I still see it as very poor judgement. |
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Member
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| I noticed that the three days I was there, it seems there were a lot of reskates due to official error. An entire division of heats were rerun as well as a final event and others. I'm kind of thinking this could possibly go along with the other thread about rolling refs, am I right?
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Veteran
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Location: MS | Well, no not really. Yes, the refs did make an error but with the other reuns the skaters went back out and skated....why didn't these? |
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Expert
Posts: 1447
| skatefan - 2010-07-10 7:30 PM I noticed that the three days I was there, it seems there were a lot of reskates due to official error. An entire division of heats were rerun as well as a final event and others. I'm kind of thinking this could possibly go along with the other thread about rolling refs, am I right? ''
Many/most of the reskates were not due to rolling refs. Generally, if an entire division is skated, it's because skaters were in the wrong heat, or perhaps the wrong distance was set up; rolling refs have nothing to do with those at Nationals. Some reskates are due to wrong number of laps, which isn't a rolling ref responsibility. There was at least one reskate because a skater missed the race, special situation, but not a rollng ref issue.
3racers&acrewchief - 2010-07-10 7:55 PM but with the other reuns the skaters went back out and skated....why didn't these?
Perhaps because other skaters hadn't skated 50 laps? Also, I think many skaters had left the building in this case.
Edited by Jim White 2010-07-11 10:41 AM
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Extreme Veteran
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Location: Atlanta GA | Jim, All of the so called "pro" skaters were in the building watching the re-run of the 5000m race. most of not all were sitting in the ready area.
To me, those who did not race showed great respect of authourty for the younger generation of skaters.. (sarcasam). Jonathan and Will were the true "champions" of the pro division this year,.. I could go on and on about this, but this right here is a reason that I think the "pro" name for indoor is a mistake.. those skaters werent "pro", they were "pre=madonna's". Each should be punnished for there actions during, and before that race. |
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Location: North Texas | There is not that much "class" in World Class. Perhaps true class is measured in another way? |
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| PinnacleRaceJB - 2010-07-11 2:09 PM
Jim, All of the so called "pro" skaters were in the building watching the re-run of the 5000m race. most of not all were sitting in the ready area.
To me, those who did not race showed great respect of authourty for the younger generation of skaters.. (sarcasam). Jonathan and Will were the true "champions" of the pro division this year,.. I could go on and on about this, but this right here is a reason that I think the "pro" name for indoor is a mistake.. those skaters werent "pro", they were "pre=madonna's". Each should be punnished for there actions during, and before that race.
Maybe if they were going to rerun the race they should have done just that. Not an abbreviated version with only 7 skaters, rerunning this race with only 7 skaters doing 50 laps with no eliminations is a completely different race. I do however agree that they all should have skated the race but it should have been the original race format with all of the skaters just as it is in any other division.
As far as being punished for their actions during the race-not sure what you are complaining about that was one of the best races of nationals. I don't think you want to start pointing any fingers because Jonathan was skating just as aggresively as the others as he always does.
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Location: MS | Tom Atkins - 2010-07-11 5:26 PM
There is not that much "class" in World Class. Perhaps true class is measured in another way?
Very well put! |
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Veteran
Posts: 111
| From what i took from the situation, the guys that did not choose to re run the race did so because they did not agree with the rules in the book. Sometimes you have to stand up for what you believe in and these guys did that. The rule book is created by officials and people who are not always neccesarily thinking from a skaters view point. re running the race with only 7 skaters completely changes the race. there would be no elim, the race would not be as fast, and there wouldn't be as much passing happening. this would open the door for more of a sprinter type to win the race instead of someone who would have won the original endurance race. They should have either left it the way it was, and not re run it, or wait till the next day and re run the race with the full amount of skaters, re-creating the original race. And most of the coaches of the guys who sat out in protest agreed with their decision. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 328
| I am going to comment on 1 thing.
"... the race would not be as fast....
Didnt Jonathan blair get some what close to breaking the National record all by him self???
i would say thats prety fast for a 1 man job!
danger |
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Veteran
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| Danger Racing - 2010-07-11 5:25 PM
I am going to comment on 1 thing.
"... the race would not be as fast....
Didnt Jonathan blair get some what close to breaking the National record all by him self???
i would say thats prety fast for a 1 man job!
danger
When it was over he was well off of the record. He did however give it a good try. |
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Extreme Veteran
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Location: Atlanta GA | you didnt understand.. punished for the actions of not skating, not being a role model, and things that they(along with some adults) did in the ready area.. it was completley out of line..
and you have to admit, Jonathan is a completley diffrent skater than he was 6-8 mos ago.... I will go on record as to say he was probably the MVP of this year..
Don - 2010-07-11 5:41 PM
PinnacleRaceJB - 2010-07-11 2:09 PM
Jim, All of the so called "pro" skaters were in the building watching the re-run of the 5000m race. most of not all were sitting in the ready area.
To me, those who did not race showed great respect of authourty for the younger generation of skaters.. (sarcasam). Jonathan and Will were the true "champions" of the pro division this year,.. I could go on and on about this, but this right here is a reason that I think the "pro" name for indoor is a mistake.. those skaters werent "pro", they were "pre=madonna's". Each should be punnished for there actions during, and before that race.
Maybe if they were going to rerun the race they should have done just that. Not an abbreviated version with only 7 skaters, rerunning this race with only 7 skaters doing 50 laps with no eliminations is a completely different race. I do however agree that they all should have skated the race but it should have been the original race format with all of the skaters just as it is in any other division.
As far as being punished for their actions during the race-not sure what you are complaining about that was one of the best races of nationals. I don't think you want to start pointing any fingers because Jonathan was skating just as aggresively as the others as he always does.
Edited by PinnacleRaceJB 2010-07-11 5:56 PM
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Veteran
Posts: 150
| Understood |
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Member
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| at the end of the day, what is class? reading through this thread, it seems to be just an opinion that someone else has of you... correct me if i'm wrong, but there's no committee that decideds who has class and who doesnt, there's not even a standard for what class really is. basically, saying someone has 'class' is just approval of their actions, which IS conditional based on how you grew up, how you were raised, your life experiences, your friends, your clicks, the things you saw, or even the things you think you saw, just to name a few.
This discussion is fueled by assumptions, from what i can see, simply because there's a need to debate how disappointed some are in the pro division.
I say get rid of the prima donnas and send everyone back to their divisions, take all the money they were getting paid and give it to the junior world team. |
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Location: MS | sk8dude1388 - 2010-07-11 8:18 PM
From what i took from the situation, the guys that did not choose to re run the race did so because they did not agree with the rules in the book. Sometimes you have to stand up for what you believe in and these guys did that. The rule book is created by officials and people who are not always neccesarily thinking from a skaters view point. re running the race with only 7 skaters completely changes the race. there would be no elim, the race would not be as fast, and there wouldn't be as much passing happening. this would open the door for more of a sprinter type to win the race instead of someone who would have won the original endurance race. They should have either left it the way it was, and not re run it, or wait till the next day and re run the race with the full amount of skaters, re-creating the original race. And most of the coaches of the guys who sat out in protest agreed with their decision.
Thanks for the post Sk8dude, this and a few others are helping me understand what went down. I understand not agreeing with something. But my opinion is these guys went about it the wrong way. Like the rules or not, they were in place before the race started and everybody knew them. Officials don't always make perfect decisions....but they are officials...the authority...I didn't see these same people sitting around not skating last year when the SR 2 Man was reran (in case someone forgot there was interferrence and a fall, the race was reran without the interferring team but with the team that fell and caused the stop of the race) oh and for the record I thought that was the right call. I liked it but a lot of others didn't....they still skated though.
Thanks also to Paul D, your remark on class does have merit. I had not thought of it that way. I thought everyone was supposed to think just like me :-D. As for putting those guys back in division, I don't know. I was really thinking that til last year at Peoria and honestly I enjoyed watching them and started leaning back toward leaving it alone. Except for this one poor display I heard the racing was pretty good this year too.
Finally, I guess another option would have been to rerun with the number of laps left at the time of the error, but maybe that wasn't thought of and at this point doesn't really matter...does it? |
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Member
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| after doing a little digging from a reliable source this is what I've come up with-
the rerun was do to official error in not immediately taking a skater (kimani griffin) off of the track after he was eliminated, then when the subsequent elimination came around, the next person (william bowen) was eliminated and asked to leave the track along with kimani, making it appear as if there was some sort of double elimination-- technically, despite still being on the track, griffin was not part of the race. According to the person i talked to, it shouldn't have been means for a re-run based on the fact that once eliminated, regardless of how quickly the referees announce it, you are no longer part of the race and apparently its the skaters responsibility to know when he is last in the line. That being said, will bowen was the final skater eliminated to bring the pack down to 6 skaters for the final sprint which finished harry, justin, chad, joey, jonathan, and michael, setting the overall placements at joey, harry, chad.
Now, the rules state that if there is a rerun in an elimination race, the full amount of laps must be ran and any skaters eliminated prior to the official error will not be allowed to skate the rerun. This meant that there would have been 7 skaters racing a 50 lap 'elimination' race, which they had just completed about an hour prior. The story goes that after the rerun was announced, the majority of the athletes, who were eligible to start, came together and agreed that the race was fair and that 1. it wasn't right to take away a podium that harry, justin and chad just rightfully earned 2. that it wouldn't change that joey was still going to take overall and 3. they didn't want to skate 50 more laps when they just put it all on the line and skated as hard as they could in the first one. From what I'm told, the 5 skaters who sat out accepted the outcome of the orriginal race and just made a judgement call, not in an attempt to be rebellious or disrespectful, but in standing firm for what they thought was right. The 2 skaters who chose to race it obviously did the same thing, just had different views on the matter obviously- not saying one or the other is correct, but thats how the whole thing unfolded im told |
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| As far as i know paul has it exactly correct
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Location: MS | Thanks again Paul D, I have now heard three different versions of the story. They are all very similar in fact, but different in perception. I have had a lot of times in my life where I had to things I didn't want to, but I did it anyway because it is what I was supposed to do. I understand that it may not have intended to be rebellious or disrespectful but that was my perception of the event and I don't think I am alone. You quoted the rule on the event, so if the rule is there and you do not follow it, is that not rebellious and/or disrespectful?
Again, I thank you for digging the info up, unfortunately it still doesn't change my small little mind. :-(
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Location: Lincoln, Nebraska | I just want to know what happened to the 3rd place money? |
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| Depending on who you were pulling for, sponsored or otherwise there are alot of opinions on this race, the rerun and the outcome. All I can say is this those people who keep complaining about the ones who didn't rerun the race and booed them and come out here and bash them or say the ones who reran were a better representative of what skaters should be need to rethink. Last year I watched the Seniors in the Senior 2-Man relay re-run 3 or 4 times that race. Even Harry who got the crap knocked out of him ran it each time. As skaters I would think that you of all people would understand the drain on your stamina, ability, mentality, just your whole focus as to what you came to do is totally shot once they keep doing "do overs". Regardless as to who won the first one or the second one this race was ran, the skaters did their jobs. The only reason for a do over was official error. Did the officials skate their asses off for 50 laps? Did the coaches on the side lines skate the 50 laps? Did the people in the stands skate 50 laps? Did those of us watching at home? Hell no none of us did!! So when you don't do something its real easy to talk smack about those who did. Joey had them all beat which may be why he didn't skate. Harry done what he came to Nationals to do which may be why he didn't skate. I do know that Chad took a hard fall at the finish line which may be why he didn't skate. I don't know about them or any others but neither do you unless you ask them.
More power to Will and Jonathan for running 50 laps after they had ran 50 laps, congrats to them for taking a 1, 2 win but please don't come out here trashing the other skaters because they did not want to reskate. Sorry but I remember some races from different meets where some of these very skaters won a race then were told it would be re-run due to some official error and some of you trashing now were bitching and raising hell at that time too about doing a re-run. The skaters weren't being disrespectful to the world of inline speed skating, wasn't their fault the calls that were made, they did their laps and it wasn't a walk in the park. Redo a 10 lap or a 15 lap or even a 20 but redo a 50? Seriously?
Edited by hpmom104 2010-07-12 11:46 AM
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Extreme Veteran
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Location: Atlanta GA | Hpmom, regardless of what happens somewhere else, this was NATIONALS.. there was more errors than just between Kimani and Will for the last elim. There were 3 protests for that race, and other were filling out paperwork, but stopped as they figured 3 was enough. the end of the race was affected also, as Jonathan was told to leave the floor with 8(ish) laps left adn went to the back of the pack, but 2 laps later was told to keep skating... you think that could have changed the outcome?
Regardless, there was a error, and as the officials, the "law", they made a decision to re-run... now 5 skaters just flat out didnt do what they were asked of, of a sophmore man did that, or a freshman girl did that, that woudl be a huge issue. Because the skaters who were named are who they are, its "ok".. thats bogus..
of course, this is just my opinion.. if i was told after I was taken out in my 20 and knocked out, that I had to re-run that race on 10 min, I would be on the line, seeing double or not.. |
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Veteran
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| It's amazing how an argument for rerunning a pro-race is not valid for any other division. I know this was an elimination an as such is unique but when a skater who was DQ'd refuses to leave the track and changes the outcome of the race, then the argument for a rerun should apply across the board. This IDN the "rules" were enforced so inconsistently (if at all) that "fair play" was not part of the race outcome in many divisions.
I saw the other thread about rolling refs but how about competency? There were some good refs out there at times but they were outnumbered by officials who IMO had no right making calls at a high level competition such as IDN. Forget why the PRO Men decided to sit out... let's look at why so many of our experienced officials "boycotted" IDN. Whether it's PRO, Elite or Novice, all rules should be enforced consistently and with the same level of competency. It's kinda sad when the folks who were running the IDN acknowledged that many of the rolling officials "should not be out there" and that the NGB was "scraping the bottom of the barrel".
Again... Some knowledgeable officials were out there and anyone who has been around knows who they are. The "others"... well, let's just say that most of my skaters/parents would rather have spent their money going to NIRA Nationals because of the "bad calls" or (in most cases) "non-calls". This is a can of worms... I know but one that needs to be opened. It's not intended to personally bash anyone but rather to bring to light that we have an officiating issue that needs to be addressed at the highest level.
Rolling or not... this needs to be fixed. |
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Ok What did I miss? Can someone explain?
